Mini Meta 2012

[rodo]

I've been working on these longer than it seems, but here all three prompts are, all on one post:

I. Usage of other languages in your English fic (foreign characters, emphasis) - getting it wrong/right

My opinions on the whole thing are very complicated and different on a case to case basis, so I’m trying to boil them down to a few (seven) general rules regarding what I like when it comes to it:

1. Make sure the text is understandable without translation (at the bottom or elsewhere) or knowledge of the language.
2. Make sure what you use is correct. If possible, have a native speaker look over it.
3. Pay attention to how foreigners speak. Sometimes the odd misplaced word, phrase or sentence structure in English says more than a “ja” at the end of a sentence.
4. Go beyond the simplest words, curses and endearments. Example: my prof used “nan to iu” a lot when speaking German.
5. Keep the squiggly marks and odd letters, no matter how difficult to find. They’re there for a reason.
6. If you use a transcription, decide on one and stick with it. If you’re transcribing Chinese, please, for the love of all that is good, use Pinyin.
7. I actually like it if you forego transcriptions altogether. People won’t know what it means or how it is pronounced either way.

II. What makes THE movie fandom (big, e.g. XMFC, Inception, Avengers)

Go figure that I get stuck with a question I asked because I don’t quite know the answer, but I’d very much like to know it. You see, I watched The Three Musketeers last year, and I loved it. It was all I ever wanted in a Musketeer movie, plus airships. But for some reason, nobody picked it up, despite its ridiculousness, adventures and three guys sharing a house. So, what do the above mentioned have that makes them more fandomy than others? I’m partly guessing, since I haven’t watched all of them, but:

1. Contemporary American setting, or close enough.
2. Established fandom for pre-existing versions of the material.
3. Famous actors to draw in a fanbase.
4. Science fiction or fantasy setting.
5. At least two possible popular slash pairings.
6. Focused on plot, not characterisation.

As far as I can tell, XMFC and Inception hit five of these points, the Avengers franchise all six. The Three Musketeers hits three (unless there is a fandom I don’t know of). Of course, there are exceptions, (Pirates of the Caribbean hits four, as do the Sherlock Holmes movies), but mostly I think that’s what makes the big movies fandoms of the day.

III. Do you ever come across statements in fic that seem wrong to you, but aren't easily verifiable? E.g. "it took them x hours to walk the y miles" (what? I know they're in good shape, but surely...). If yes, have you ever addressed the author on it?

I come across something like this every now and again, I suppose everyone does. Sometimes it’s a bit of characterisation, stereotyping or other such things that irk me and that are subjective to a certain degree, other times I do find proof that the info is wrong after an obsessive amount of googling. And sometimes I am really convinced that something is wrong because my brain tells me I know for a fact that Memphis in Egypt does not have a university where you can study archaeology because it hasn’t been inhabited in forever.

However, I only bring it up if I have verified it nowadays (yes, even the Memphis thing). The reason is an embarrassing incident that happened approximately a hundred internet years ago back when I was a wee newbie into Weiß Kreuz. I corrected someone’s use of fangirl German, telling her that a word was not a proper German curseword – and then she replied to me that yes, it is a proper German curseword where she lives, providing citations and all.

And thus I proved that if you do bring it up, chances are you’re wrong.

Comments

[dancing_serpent]

I. This prompt was inspired by reading too many fics containing mangled German in XMFC and Hetalia fandom. Authors not observing the points two and five are the main sources of my annoyance.


II. Oh, The Three Musketeers! I didn't even make an attempt at finding a fandom for the new film as I've never had much success for other versions. Maybe I wasn't the only one who thought like that?

When I watched Inception I didn't expect the movie fandom would grow that big, or that big with Arthur/Eames as the most popular pairing. The movie has several things that appeal to me: the science fiction elements, interesting characters I want to know more about, delicious character dynamics and conflict potential, gorgeous actors. Yes, definitely some points from your list of reasons there. *g*
All in all I adored it and would have loved to make it my Next Big Thing fandom-wise, but the lack of reading material made me turn to other fandoms soon.

So I guess I'm the wrong person to be much help with this question.


III. *nod nod* Same for me.

But then (in the current fandome climate) I often keep quiet even when I know for sure that a statement/information/procedure in a fic is wrong and easily verified. There's the safe space thing again, and sometimes also a hint of resignation. Because the same wrong information gets mentioned in so many fics I come across, for example, and I wouldn't know where to start. *g*

[rodo]

I. Yes, two and five are definitely the most obvious. One of the reason I never completely got into reading English Weiß Kreuz fic was the treatment of the poor ß. That's one thing the German fic got right, at least.

II. I wouldn't say you're the wrong person. Part of my problem there is that I don't get the popular fandoms these last few years. I find the movies mildly enjoyable at best, but not "OMG I need fic", and in the case of Inception, I didn't even manage to watch past the first ten minutes because it bored me. So my perspective is that of a bemused outsider wondering what it is about them that's so great.

III. Yeah, sometimes the potential fallout isn't worth it. I haven't had the best experiences with correcting someone's German when I was right either. One time, the offending bits and my comment mysteriously disappeared, another time I was getting a flame back. And that was before the current climate change, when concrit was still more valued.

Have you tried anon memes? They've been a blessing for me.

[dancing_serpent]

I. Or the treatment of ä, ö and ü. If I read "mein Fuhrer" one more time...

II. *g* I was head over heels in love with Inception, went to the cinema five times and pre-ordered the DVD. But even if it had turned out to be boring for me, it had Ken Watanabe! ♥ ♥ ♥ I mean, I watched Last Samurai because of him! And Ken Watanabe plus Ellen Page, Michael Caine and Cillian Murphy? I was in heaven! Didn't hurt that I liked Tom Hardy and Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Leonardo DiCaprio, as well.
But I still don't get Inception fandom, because for me it's all about Saitou (Ken), Robert (Cillian) and Dom Cobb (DiCaprio). *shrug*

I often miss being part of a popular fandom. HP was glorious! So much to read.

I find the movies mildly enjoyable at best, but not "OMG I need fic"
Yes, that kind of fits with my usual reaction. I don't crave fic for things I only find mildly enjoyable, I have to love the source and/or the characters. For example, I've recently watched Thor and Captain America. No fic cravings there.

III. I don't really see the point in anon memes. Or I simply don't get them. How would they help me?

[rodo]

Hmm, in anon memes, you can say whatever you like without anyone knowing it was you. So people are more honest, which of course also has its disadvantages, but I don't feel pressured to be/feel a certain way. I also find it easier to disengage if things get heated for some reason.

[dancing_serpent]

I can't imagine that would be in any way satisfying for me. *g*

[blnchflr]

Make sure the text is understandable without translation (at the bottom or elsewhere) or knowledge of the language.
Yes!

Pay attention to how foreigners speak. Sometimes the odd misplaced word, phrase or sentence structure in English says more than a “ja” at the end of a sentence.
And then there's the over-use of that, which is annoying as hell.

Go figure that I get stuck with a question I asked because I don’t quite know the answer, but I’d very much like to know it.
I've been looking forward to answers on this one, too, as I have no clue at all! Current movie fandoms don't seem anywhere NEAR as big as LotR or new Star Wars were back when, but maybe it's just because my f-lists are so small these days?

…There was a Musketeers movie last year?

III is my question - basically I just need to summon up the courage to post on it under lock the next time it happens. Then my friends can all agree with me that my take is obviously the right one :oP

[rodo]

And then there's the over-use of that, which is annoying as hell.

Well, overuse of any kind generally isn't the best idea.

…There was a Musketeers movie last year?

Yes. It starred Milla Jovovich as (the perfect) Milady, Orlando Bloom as the ridiculously stylish and evil Duke of Buckingham, Christoph Waltz as Cardinal Richelieu and Mads Mikkelsen as Rochefort. I thought the casting was spot on. I mentioned the airships, didn't I? Even my action-scene-hating mother loved those.

[blnchflr]

I'm re-watching LotR these days (just finished FotR earlier tonight) - Orlando Bloom was such a young, pretty elf, wasn't he :o)

[rodo]

Yes. And I am always surprised by how the hair colour changes his looks.

[kabal42]

Re. 1: Gosh, your answer is a thing of beauty. I feel a palpable relief at reading that, because YES! (I do mostly notice this with people trying to use German in whatever they're doing, because we Scandinavians most often get a pass - rather a miss - for being so small.) But the poor abused German language. I can't even imagine how terrible it must be for the Japanese, Chinese, Russians and loads of other people with different alphabets as well.

Re. 2: You may be on to something. I think I'll have to refer back to this when the next big thing hits.
(Like blnchflr I didn't completely realise there was a Musketeers movie. I may have to find it, because you make it sound awesome!) Though the internets being what they are, the american setting is, I think, a big deal. I have lots of small, entirely silent, rants about how bloody annoying it is that the US dominates the internet so much that cultural difference is completely squashed or even frowned upon - when not outright treated racist/othered.

Re. 3: Ohgosh, that's so why I am always afraid to do that. Even when it's something I KNOW. And I don't want to hurt people either. Even the best researched fics have errors of that kind sometimes and it would be such a shame to hit the kind of person who'd tried very hard with a thing like that.

P.S. If you wonder where I popped up from, I saw the link on blnchflr's round up and had to read your answers.

[rodo]

Re. 1: Well, fangirl German can be fun and adorable. Although I am more forgiving if it is done by a Japanese person. The different alphabets mostly annoy me with Chinese, because the Japanese and Korean transcription systems I can usually translate to the alphabet (seriously, if you have a free afternoon, teach yourself the Korean one, it's awesome). But Wade-Giles made my life hell when I had a course on Sino-Japanese relations. It's really common in English literature on the topic, but makes no sense to someone who's native language is not English. Pinyin rules.

Re. 2: I think the dominance of US culture on the internet is annoying too. I feel like my existence is overlooked and that I am not included in "people" and "fans" sometimes because my experiences differ from those of fans elsewhere. On FFA, there is a discussion about spoiler policies which boiled down to who was the majority, US or UK people. The rest of us was declared statistically irrelevant.

I didn't wonder where you came from, btw. I expected a round-up post by blnchflr. ^_^

[kabal42]

Re.1: Aw, I like that idea. I guess I'm mostly tired (on behalf of Germans - and a bit of myself as a speaker on what I call 'tourist level') of people who use words like 'uber' and pronounce it like that in English etc.
I am so taking this to heart for further reference. Thanks for that :-)

Re. 2: Ugh, what an obnoxious policy! I think it's that it's so ubiquitous - no matter where I go it's all about the US. Down to things like 'when looking for help, remember put your state in the subject line'. Well I don't have one! Like everything is about the US. We're supposed to care about things like LGBT rights in the US, but do they care about my rights here? I doubt it. So it's really becoming a peeve. (Sorry for the mini-rant.)

:-)

[rodo]

Hey, I am all for exporting the awesomeness of the German language. And if they think they absolutely need "uber", so be it. I'll mangle English in return.

No need to be sorry. If you don't mini-rant, you'll explode. It's like when Americans feel the need to insist they're from a state - Texas or somesuch - I always want to tell them "Well, I'm not German, I'm Lower Saxon." I've also heard about ATCA for months now, but apparently it's a new thing now.

[kabal42]

Hehe. Ok, fair point. And I do think German is a great language.

Ohyes, all with you there! That'd be like, 'I'm from Sealand' for me ;-)

[krait]

It was indeed an awesome Musketeers movie. I'm definitely going to buy it. Exploding airships! Ridiculous rooftop fencing! Superninjaspy ladies! Baby monarchs being adorable over each other! D'Artagnon's horse!

[krait]

I would like to add, relevant to the original post:

I didn't do much fandom-seeking, despite my boundless love of the movie; I suspect mainly because I knew how impossible it would be to find fic for just this 'Musketeers' when the source material has been adapted and redone and reimagined so many times. (It's like my love for Sir Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes: almost impossible to find fic for, because you have to sift through the three million fics about the RDJ movies, the BBC series, the other BBC series, the recycled-in-SPACE! show, the Rathbone Holmes...)

[rodo]

Strange. I always heard that Sherlock Holmes had quite a bit of fic for a literary fandom over a hundred years old, and I know of at least two archives who don't put all the fandoms in one.

[krait]

It is easier now, and you're right about the big archives.

Back when I first started in fandom, though, and began looking for Holmesfic? The holmesslash ML was my main fandom inroad, and did not (as I recall) separate well; and there was only Sacrilege! that I knew of which archived (slash) fic for the ACD-canon Holmes. Occasionally I scrounged through larger, multifandom archives; but AO3 didn't exist yet and a lot of fic was not labelled by the author very clearly.

[kabal42]

You have sold me on this. There shall be rental film in my future!

[krait]

Yay! A convert!

I have this weird relationship with "reimaginings" of old things - this movie managed to hit right in the middle of my "I have more respect for you if you just admit you like airships and added them for fun, rather than trying to pretend it's actually plausible" button. :D

I say, If you want airships and ninjaspy ladies, blame everything on Leonardo da Vinci and then have fun; there are enough historically accurate versions out there that you're not depriving people who don't want airships. (Are there such people?!) The whole movie was so over-the-top that you couldn't hold a grudge against it; you just went along waiting to see what they'd pull out of the hat next. :D

Also: I will forgive you a lot if, when sacrificing historical accuracy on the altar of entertainment, you add crazyawesome female spies who can backflip through razor wire in addition to explosive boobytraps and fencing matches for the men.

[kabal42]

I have a bit of a hit and miss with them. But yes, doing it unabashedly like that definitely earns points! I am so going to see if I can find this on my streaming subscription :-D