The Spiral of Silence
2008-05-22 01:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rodoNote: This was prompted by the current Supernatural discussion, but it is something I have been thinking about a lot, even before now. It is mainly about my own behaviour online and an attempt at rationalising it. This is also not meant to be a generalisation of fandom interaction in general.
The spiral of silence is a much discussed theory. It might or might not exist online, but I think it describes my posting habits very well, so I might actually be the proof of it's existence.
"The theory asserts that a person is less likely to voice an opinion on a topic if one feels that one is in the minority for fear of reprisal or isolation from the majority (Anderson 1996: 214; Miller 2005: 277)."
This happened to me several times already: If I get the feeling that I am in the minority (though I might actually be part of the majority, the numbers are irrelevant to this theory, it's more about what I perceive to be reality), I probably won't tell you my opinions. I learnt the hard way that it is often the best alternative to keep my mouth shut and sit on my hands until it's over. This however, only the case if the issue is an issue of morality. Issues like that include, but are not limited to, race, feminism and sexuality.
So, in order to determine whether I am part of the majority or minority, I will generally start to read what other people post on the subject, and what the reactions are to people who disagree. If the disagreement is discussed in a polite, non-emotional manner, I will probably post something or comment without fear of being shunned should I voice an opinion other people disagree with. If, however, (as is the case with the current Supernatural discussion) I feel as if my side is portraited as being morally wrong/inferior/stupid/evil, I will probably watch from afar until I feel it's safe to say something again. I like discussions, but as soon as things start to develop into an issue of morality, I start to fear reprisals should I say anything different than the perceived majority does.
These reprisals might be dog-piling, flaming, or simply an unpleasant argument with someone whose opinion I generally agree with and whom I like personally. I fear that someone might not like me anymore, to be precise. The spiral of silence can probably only be applied to describe my behaviour because I take online interaction far to seriously, but I can't help that fandom is part of my social life. I'm not sure I want to either. It's the same in RL as well, I am just generally better at judging if I things will turn unpleasant or not.
Last but not least: This is meant to be descriptive. I don't want to get people to change their behaviour, I just want to explain mine. I understand that it is probably difficult to be calm about something if you feel rather passionately about it (even though I am not a very passionate person), and I think that this is very important, because otherwise, nobody would be able to overcome a spiral of silence like the one I am caught up in. So, in a way, I envy anyone who does not feel this way about discussions in fandom.
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no subject
Date: 2008-05-23 01:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-23 01:29 pm (UTC)Diskussionen mag ich ja gerne, solange sie nicht darin enden, dass es... na ja, wanky wird. Da kann man sich dann nämlich noch so sehr verteidigen, das ist egal, denn alles was du sagst macht die Sache nur noch schlimmer.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-23 01:38 pm (UTC)Ja, irgendwie habe ich das Gefühl, dass Diskussionen hier im Netz immer sehr viel emotionaler geführt werden als im rl.
Ist schon seltsam, wie wenig tolerant die Menschen gerade in Ethik- und Moralfragen sind, oder? Und dabei behaupten sie von sich (und wahrscheinlich nicht mal zu unrecht), sie seien ja ach so tolerant. Was für ein Paradox...
no subject
Date: 2008-05-23 01:42 pm (UTC)Toleranz ist Intoleranz gegenüber Intoleranz.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-23 01:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-23 01:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 02:42 am (UTC)I wish I felt that validation of my morals and logic would be the result of my involvement in a fannish debate. The few times I've allowed myself to be dragged into one, I end up feeling like I've wasted a lot of time arguing with people who don't wish to listen or understand, or skitter away and change their points rather than ever say, "Oh, I see where you're coming from." I envy you.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-26 11:55 am (UTC)The one and only time I wanted to start a discussion of morals in english fandom was on the rpg-Kristallnacht subject. I've send the link to metafandom, but they didn't post it (for whatever reasons I don't know). My meta is quite controversial, so maybe it was that. Or maybe it was because the discussion was over at the time or something as mundane as that, I really don't know.
(If anyone wants to read it: http://sevilemar.insanejournal.com/2002.html#cutid1 )
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 01:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 01:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 01:20 am (UTC)...you seem to have missed the point.
It's not, "The mean feminists are making little old me feel bad!" but, "It bothers me when people make arguments that impose a value judgment, particularly a contemptuous one, on those that disagree with them."
Which is exactly what you are doing by characterizing people who are unhappy with Supernatural for feminist reasons as "flipping out over a few words in a character's mouth."
--Annwyd
not OP
Date: 2008-05-24 01:48 am (UTC)Re: not OP
Date: 2008-05-24 01:55 am (UTC)Re: not OP
Date: 2008-05-24 06:16 am (UTC)Re: not OP
Date: 2008-05-24 07:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 02:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 02:42 am (UTC)- Supernatural-loving female feminist, TYVM
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 03:00 pm (UTC)If you liked a show, but some aspect of it develops in a way you don't like, there is a long, loud, and proud fannish tradition of watching the show and telling everyone who'll sit still long enough exactly where it went wrong and how you would fix it. This is especially common when you like the characters but not the plots, or you like the fandom, but the show itself is inadequate in some way, or when you like most of the characters except one of the leads.
People do it all the time, they get pleasure from it, and I don't think that someone who is not in their heads can judge whether they're getting more pleasure or pain from the watching and bitching.
Not the OP there but....
Date: 2008-05-24 07:40 pm (UTC)Re: Not the OP there but....
Date: 2008-05-24 07:52 pm (UTC)I don't see the link.
When the mindset of a popular show seems to be deleterious towards a group of people, it seems to me that it's important to discuss it.
It is equally important, after all, to spread discussion of how and why MacDonald's is bad for you-- as it is to refrain from eating it yourself.
Re: Not the OP there but....
Date: 2008-05-24 11:21 pm (UTC)This is more akin to dressing up as Ronald McDonald for Halloween and passing out pamphlets explaining how McDonald's is exploiting teenagers.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 07:06 pm (UTC)To anonymous; yes, there are women who are so very angry (and so very poor at expressing their anger) that they become insulting. I do hope you've noticed that not everyone expresses themselves that way.
The SPN issue should be-- could be-- more nuanced-- with some effort, it sometimes is.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 11:04 pm (UTC)Sometimes, though, it's a wall of anger and hysteria that nothing, rational or otherwise, can penetrate. I get why it's there. I'm just not ready to expose myself to it. I don't always have the time or the emotional energy to wade into these wars, hence the Anon posting here.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 11:14 pm (UTC)Time and energy ebb and flow.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 11:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 02:41 am (UTC)http://morgandawn.insanejournal.com/134286.html
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 07:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 02:46 am (UTC)*nods* I have this feeling too. Weirdly, there's been a few times when I've spoken up, and someone else will say, "Oh my gosh, yes!" and then that feels good, that someone else was waiting for me to step forward and be first. :-) But then other times it devolves into a total fiasco that wastes hours of my life, and makes me resolve again never to get involved in fannish debates. :-(
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 02:47 am (UTC)Thanks for your post.
I do not believe real discussion (let alone dissent) is allowed in fandom on any serious topic. Toe the party line, comrade, or get sent to the gulag.
Let our party leaders have their say.
I doubt they notice how many aren't participating in the conversation.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 07:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 04:21 am (UTC)The thing is, I think these conversations are important, and I wish fandom could create an online equivalent of breakout rooms, so that when things get to the point of ranting, venting and just generally more heat than light, the people who want to thoughtfully engage can do so.
Millefiori
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 08:09 pm (UTC)Here vid metafandom
Date: 2008-05-24 06:07 pm (UTC)The time that I felt this most clearly was a time when my fandom was doing a ton of meta on racism. Most everyone can agree that racism is bad, I certainly do, but the situation was that a behaviour had been observed, and the conclusion drawn was that the behaviour was caused by, specifically fanfic author's being racist, although most were saying it was unconscious racism. It seemed that anyone who disagreed with this argument was either being dismissive of racism, or was racist themselves.
I could totally agree that was was being done didn't appear all that great, and that people were being hurt by it, but I just couldn't get behind the people making broad sweeping statements saying that everyone who did this, had racist motivations. I said so (although not as clearly as I now wish I had), and the result was not pretty. The result is, I just don't feel comfortable speaking up on such topics anymore, or if I do, I feel the need to lock it down, and make sure only certain people can see it.
Re: Here vid metafandom
Date: 2008-05-24 07:49 pm (UTC)Yes, I totally understand what you went through because the same thing happened to me. Since then, I hardly dare to speak about racism because I was more or less flamed and told I am a racist because I happen to be white (and all white people are racists).
For some reason locking down doesn't even occur to me, no matter what I write. Maybe I should start posting f-locked, but I guess I just don't know my f-list well enough, and I am afraid of insulting them.
Re: Here vid metafandom
Date: 2008-05-24 08:11 pm (UTC)The other thing that really got me, was that people don't seem to understand that fandom/the internet isn't American.
I'm not saying my country doesn't have racism, but it's a different kind. The main argument in the case I mentioned was that the assumption was that author's were writing CoC into AUs with lower positions, despite it not fitting with the character, because we look around us in RL and see PoC in lower positions. That may be the case in America, but in my country, most PoC are in higher positions, because immigration standards can be high, and we have a doctor shortage. I'm more likely to associate a PoC with a profession like scientist, doctor, or similar. I don't really think others are qualified to say what motivates me or others.
For some reason locking down doesn't even occur to me, no matter what I write.
Yeah, I know when I first started on LJ, it never occurred to me to lock posts, then I started to write about some really personal problems and locked the whole thing down. I now do a bit of both, with most things being public.
I guess I just don't know my f-list well enough, and I am afraid of insulting them.
Insulting people is always a danger, but my reasoning is, that my flist should know me a bit better, so if I say something that can go two ways, they'll be better at knowing which way I really mean. They'll give you a little more flack if you screw things up, whereas someone from outside your flist, might read your opinions and come to the conclusions that you're racist/a bitch/a wanker/wrong/whatever.
But I totally understand the want to not rock the boat, especially if you see other people on your flist doing so, and it can't help but make you change your opinion of them. That's never happened to me with people on my flist, but I've seen a couple big names in fandom get involved with these things and have changed my opinion of them after reading what they said. *shrugs*
Re: Here vid metafandom
Date: 2008-05-24 08:33 pm (UTC)That got me too. There is racism in my country, but it's much more complex than just white vs. black. I am living in Germany, and the situation here is a very different one. I am also used to a different definition of racism, so that added to the difficulty.
I guess the diversity online/in fandom is one of the main causes of wank. We, as individuals, tend to assume other people who have the same interests think the same way we do. And that's just not the case. It might not be very obvious most of the time, but the people in fandom generally don't have much in common except for it. There are academics, high schoolers, stay-at-home mums, and so on, and we're all from different cultural backgrounds as well. It's probably a miracle things don't blow up more often.
Re: Here vid metafandom
Date: 2008-05-27 01:07 am (UTC)There is racism in my country, but it's much more complex than just white vs. black.
*nods* The black population of America has a very vibrant history that still affects so many people today. But in a country where there isn't as big a presence of black people, it's hard to apply those same actions and thought processes. I mean, in Canada where I live, black people account for less than 17% of the visible minorities in the country, and only 2% of the total population. Much more of the racism in Canada is directed at the Native population, and is quite different from the racism felt by African Americans.
It might not be very obvious most of the time, but the people in fandom generally don't have much in common except for it.
I can't speak for fandom as a whole, but as a slasher in fandom, I have felt that it draws people with some similar ideas above and beyond just the fandom. Like we're far more likely to be liberally minded when it comes to outside issues. But since we're all so used to agreeing with each other against the big bad outside world, it shocks us when we disagree. Have you watched the American Democratic Primaries at all? I can't seem to be able to avoid it, but you see such fighting and mud slinging going on over which candidate is best, and it surprises people, because they are so used to standing together against a common hated Republican enemy.
Re: Here via metafandom
Date: 2008-05-27 07:32 pm (UTC)Congratulations!
I don't watch, but my flatmate did a U-Turn after she listened to one of Obama's speeches while she was in the USA. It's fascinating, tbh. I still don't get the mud slinging, though, but that might just be because I vote for a party and not a candidate (different system, over here).
I suppose that's true as long as you stick to the slashers, but I spent a lot of time in German forums, and there's no way to keep slashers and non-slashers apart, because it's just too small. It's just impossible to hide in your own little corner for too long. Maybe that's why I spend most time reading English nowadays (well, that, and that there's almost no meta discussion in German).
Re: Here via metafandom
Date: 2008-05-29 09:18 pm (UTC)Thank you! I'm very proud :D
I still don't get the mud slinging, though, but that might just be because I vote for a party and not a candidate (different system, over here).
Well the problem right now is, most people in the US vote based on parties too, and all the people who are fighting are strong Democrates. The Primaries are an internal election within the party for party leader. So all of a sudden people that had been on the same side before are suddenly being pitted against each other because they support a different member of the same party.
I suppose that's true as long as you stick to the slashers
Yeah, when I first wrote that bit up, I didn't include that I was a slasher, then I though of some of the discussions/arguments that I've observed in the few communities I'm in that aren't strictly slash, and I realized that it probably doesn't apply to all of fandom.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 06:50 pm (UTC)I'm desperate to talk, because I enjoy discussing absolutely anything in a reasonable manner, as long as everyone remains reasonable. I've even considered making a journal where nobody knows it's me and giving my opinions free reign that way, but I also think that beginning discussions without giving people the chance to know who I am and what my background is, is incredibly unfair to them. They deserve to know my biases. Since I don't really know what to do, I imagine I will continue to keep my mouth shut. So...you know. You're not alone, and all that. I'm not about to break my silence either.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-24 08:07 pm (UTC)I just wish I could. I am just not that type of person, and I get a feeling that my life would be much better if I was. Sometimes I just feel the urge to discuss the topic, and repressing said urge does not feel too good.