Why the AO3 needs to be translated
2009-10-18 03:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rodoOkay, the obvious answer to this question would be: “Because not everybody in the world knows English and the AO3 is meant to be for everyone”, and that’s a good answer. It’s not the only answer, though. I know people who never learned English in school. I also know people who have difficulties learning languages and thus never really understood English. But generally speaking, I’m from a country where many, many people learned English in school (it’s compulsory for everyone in my state, for example), where many advertisements are in English, just like shop names, product names and many, many more. In theory, all these people should be able to navigate the archive.
However, being surrounded by English all the time evidently doesn’t mean people understand it. Whenever my mother (who spent half a year in London and can read Gaiman short stories in English without a problem) sees the iPhone commercial and I’m sitting next to her, she asks me what an app is. I only have a very fuzzy idea of that myself, but I assume it’s meant to be short for “application” or something like that and translates to “Anwendung” or “Programm”. Being generally proficient in English doesn’t always translate to being able to understand specialised English vocabulary like that on the internet. When I went to school, we were lucky if we learned about CDs (one particular French textbook was still stuck in the early 80s) or songs, but most of the lessons were about Book English. We read Steven King, The Giver, 1984 and Frankenstein. Not exactly the type of material that prepares you for navigating the internet. We did learn numerous words used in the Australian outback though, and “consumption” (= the disease) and “exogamy”.
Being an EFL speaker also means that you often don’t understand the nuances of English or the different meanings a word can have. I’ve had discussions about the book title Embracing Defeat and still don’t have a definite answer as to whether the Defeat Embraced the Japanese, the Japanese Embraced the Defeat, or whether it might mean both. More to the point: Would an ENL speaker even worry about this?
And even the omnipresent English I’m exposed to in my daily life is only understood by maybe a forth of the population in the age group advertisements target (see this Spiegel article). I doubt that every fanfic author is part of that forth, especially considering the often grammatically wrong English titles authors like to use. It’s not even that these English slogans and product names aren’t understood at all, as if they were in Chinese. No, they are partly understood, but often misunderstood. “Powered by Emotion” becomes “Kraft durch Freude” (Strength through Joy – the name of a Nazi organisation), “Broadcast yourself” becomes “Feed yourself”, “Come in and find out” becomes “Come in and find your way out”. It’s a typical coping tactic by someone who sort of understands, but not really. You just fill in the blanks; sometimes you’re right, sometimes you aren’t. You generally don’t talk about it, either, because more often than not, you have no easy way of checking if your guess was correct.
If it comes to navigating the internet, this means many people feel vaguely uncomfortable with a space where they only halfway understand what it’s about. I’m not only talking about clicking “yes” on TOS you couldn’t properly understand even if you did read them. I’m talking about the seemingly easy stuff. Sure, you can sort of guess, but it’s trial and error most of the time, and many people prefer to avoid these spaces, because it becomes more of a chore and less fun. Especially if the website uses concepts that they can’t easily translate to their native language.
Looking at the AO3, there are quite a few possibly confusing parts. “Explore the possibilities” sounds a lot like the slogan “Entdecke die Möglichkeiten” (IKEA), which might lead to unwanted associations. “X users to date” might lead to thoughts like “How the hell did I end up on a dating site, I don’t want to date anyone.” “Share your fan works” might be confusing because some people might think “works” is a verb (“Filter works” too). The entire concept of “collections” is confusing because it’s new. Hardly anyone will understand the word “tag”, maybe some people will think it refers to the date. “Recs” also isn’t easy to understand because the German word “Empfehlungen” is so different and the German archives that I frequent refer to them as “favourites”.
On top of that, the rating system is foreign, the concept of a series of fanfics is also something that I haven’t encountered in German fandom much before, and if I did, it is usually a series of novel length fanfics, not a series of oneshots. Not to mention that some fandoms have different names, some characters are named differently in German and if it’s all listed under the English names by default, it might make things difficult to find. Finding stories for anime and manga fandoms isn’t always easy for me on English archives because while I know the German and Japanese titles, I don’t know the English one and have to look that up first. And if the fandom is German, I generally haven’t heard of the English title at all unless the movie won an Oscar.
So I really think it’s not enough to translate the usual suspects, such as the FAQ, the TOS and such. Sure, since they’re generally the content of the page, it’s easier than adapting the entire navigation, but the people who are most likely to use the translated version of these pages won’t even get to them – the front page or the first attempts at surfing will be enough to discourage them from using the website. Not to mention that “TOS” is an English acronym that Germans at least won’t necessarily be familiar with.
However, being surrounded by English all the time evidently doesn’t mean people understand it. Whenever my mother (who spent half a year in London and can read Gaiman short stories in English without a problem) sees the iPhone commercial and I’m sitting next to her, she asks me what an app is. I only have a very fuzzy idea of that myself, but I assume it’s meant to be short for “application” or something like that and translates to “Anwendung” or “Programm”. Being generally proficient in English doesn’t always translate to being able to understand specialised English vocabulary like that on the internet. When I went to school, we were lucky if we learned about CDs (one particular French textbook was still stuck in the early 80s) or songs, but most of the lessons were about Book English. We read Steven King, The Giver, 1984 and Frankenstein. Not exactly the type of material that prepares you for navigating the internet. We did learn numerous words used in the Australian outback though, and “consumption” (= the disease) and “exogamy”.
Being an EFL speaker also means that you often don’t understand the nuances of English or the different meanings a word can have. I’ve had discussions about the book title Embracing Defeat and still don’t have a definite answer as to whether the Defeat Embraced the Japanese, the Japanese Embraced the Defeat, or whether it might mean both. More to the point: Would an ENL speaker even worry about this?
And even the omnipresent English I’m exposed to in my daily life is only understood by maybe a forth of the population in the age group advertisements target (see this Spiegel article). I doubt that every fanfic author is part of that forth, especially considering the often grammatically wrong English titles authors like to use. It’s not even that these English slogans and product names aren’t understood at all, as if they were in Chinese. No, they are partly understood, but often misunderstood. “Powered by Emotion” becomes “Kraft durch Freude” (Strength through Joy – the name of a Nazi organisation), “Broadcast yourself” becomes “Feed yourself”, “Come in and find out” becomes “Come in and find your way out”. It’s a typical coping tactic by someone who sort of understands, but not really. You just fill in the blanks; sometimes you’re right, sometimes you aren’t. You generally don’t talk about it, either, because more often than not, you have no easy way of checking if your guess was correct.
If it comes to navigating the internet, this means many people feel vaguely uncomfortable with a space where they only halfway understand what it’s about. I’m not only talking about clicking “yes” on TOS you couldn’t properly understand even if you did read them. I’m talking about the seemingly easy stuff. Sure, you can sort of guess, but it’s trial and error most of the time, and many people prefer to avoid these spaces, because it becomes more of a chore and less fun. Especially if the website uses concepts that they can’t easily translate to their native language.
Looking at the AO3, there are quite a few possibly confusing parts. “Explore the possibilities” sounds a lot like the slogan “Entdecke die Möglichkeiten” (IKEA), which might lead to unwanted associations. “X users to date” might lead to thoughts like “How the hell did I end up on a dating site, I don’t want to date anyone.” “Share your fan works” might be confusing because some people might think “works” is a verb (“Filter works” too). The entire concept of “collections” is confusing because it’s new. Hardly anyone will understand the word “tag”, maybe some people will think it refers to the date. “Recs” also isn’t easy to understand because the German word “Empfehlungen” is so different and the German archives that I frequent refer to them as “favourites”.
On top of that, the rating system is foreign, the concept of a series of fanfics is also something that I haven’t encountered in German fandom much before, and if I did, it is usually a series of novel length fanfics, not a series of oneshots. Not to mention that some fandoms have different names, some characters are named differently in German and if it’s all listed under the English names by default, it might make things difficult to find. Finding stories for anime and manga fandoms isn’t always easy for me on English archives because while I know the German and Japanese titles, I don’t know the English one and have to look that up first. And if the fandom is German, I generally haven’t heard of the English title at all unless the movie won an Oscar.
So I really think it’s not enough to translate the usual suspects, such as the FAQ, the TOS and such. Sure, since they’re generally the content of the page, it’s easier than adapting the entire navigation, but the people who are most likely to use the translated version of these pages won’t even get to them – the front page or the first attempts at surfing will be enough to discourage them from using the website. Not to mention that “TOS” is an English acronym that Germans at least won’t necessarily be familiar with.
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no subject
Date: 2009-10-18 05:13 pm (UTC)That reminds me of that anecdote where someone ran a German archive through Babelfish and found out that Germans are really weird because we have so much fanfiction about fishing. Of course they didn't take into account that the character Angel from BtVS and AtS has an unfortunate name that means fishing rod in German.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 03:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-18 10:29 pm (UTC)It's more like -- I suppose me and you believe that one *necessary condition* of 'success' for the Archive/AO3 is its adoption by non-native English speakers.
And I don't think this rates high -- or even rates at all -- as a condition, or as a measure of 'success', for native English speakers.
That's the key difference, to me.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 03:28 am (UTC)You're right, but I get this attitude from Germans sometimes too. They think that since everybody had at least some English in school, everybody should be able to at least use the navigation and such, even if writing and reading in English is too difficult.
But that's just not how it works. And even if this feature is rated low in the esteem of ENS speakers, it isn't for me. To me (as someone who writes in German), the archive won't be much different from ff.net until it's multi-lingual. And I can assure you, hardly anybody reads German fic on ff.net.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 09:26 pm (UTC)plus I always tend to forget how dismissive proficient German EFL speakers are of the German language -- or rather, of German fandom, probably, and the language by extension. It's an odd position, because those intrnationalized fannish emigrees are pretty much most people who're OTW supporters -- German-exclusive fandom certainly isn't (not blaming anyone here. We've talked about the barriers.) So it's a bit ironic that I'm trying to lobby for/represent a potential audience rather than an actual audience clamoring for "moar internationalization!" Heh.
but this potential audience means the world to me, and also? I'm part of it, too. It will be so worth it.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 04:44 am (UTC)I think it's because those EFL speakers that become really proficient are those that can jump into an unfamiliar context (English fandom/fanfic) and fight their way through what they don't get. Unfortunately, not every EFL learner can do that. I had to train myself hard to stop fretting over every word I didn't know. Not everybody can and wants to do that.
So it's a bit ironic that I'm trying to lobby for/represent a potential audience rather than an actual audience clamoring for "moar internationalization!" Heh.
Totally not ironic. You are aware of their presence. Who else should do this? Someone who participates in German exclusively and has never heard of the OTW?
no subject
Date: 2009-10-25 02:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 08:52 pm (UTC)On a side-note: a huge yay! for calling it "English as a Foreign Language" and not a second language. One of my pet peeves &ndash it's sometimes inaccurate not to mention slightly presumptous (the first and most important language to learn is always English, isn't it?!)
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 09:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 10:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 04:36 am (UTC)And yes, EFL/ESL is a pet peeve of mine too. My minor is German as a foreign language, not German as a second language, and there are differences between the two, not just in terms of when you start learning. ESL, at least for my profs, would be English for someone who wants to live in an English speaking country (often it's learned in one too), why EFL is for someone who wants to use it as a foreign language, not as a dominant language in his daily life. Totally different learning methods, goals and contexts.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 08:02 am (UTC)P.S.: Hehe, captcha said "states bochum". Captcha is German!
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 08:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 01:53 pm (UTC)And furthermore, I'm beginnig to get an inkling of why I haven't said anything at ff.de about the AO3, although I am also a member of the OTW-translation team and pretty excited about the archive. I think we will get only one really good shot about "converting" people, and I want that to happen when everything is ready. So I (and other people like me) will wait and twiddle our thumbs until we can start working.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 02:05 pm (UTC)And that's the reason why I don't spread the word too. It's just not relevant yet, because of the language barrier.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-25 02:47 pm (UTC)I suspect that it will be easier getting teams together for translating the archive (in languages not previously covered in the website, even), because it's a concrete, clearly useful tool. I hope my suspicion is correct, because I want to have every language on the net on the archive. *iz ambitious*
no subject
Date: 2009-10-25 03:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-26 12:22 am (UTC)Seriously, I heart the translation teams so hard.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-25 07:41 pm (UTC)One of the reasons I really, really want the AO3 to become a viable alternative for non-English fandoms it's because more often than not, all those fandoms are unaware of each other. While I think that interacting with the English fandom is enriching, it'd be great if, for example, German fandom and Spanish fandom knew the other existed.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-26 12:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-27 12:59 am (UTC)For example, I bet most of the Saint Seiya fic in the Internet is in Spanish rather than in English.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-27 01:11 am (UTC)And of course, some German canons have English fanfic written for them, but the English fandom is dependant on subs, so the fandoms are entirely seperate, which is weird, to say the least. I think both would benefit from a place that would make transnational communication easier.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-27 04:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-01 06:02 pm (UTC)Yes, I live in a country where everyone learns English in school, but that doesn't mean a lot when you never get to use it after. There are too many people, who will never use the language again (no matter how international the times are nowadays). And English being used in advertisement and things like that doesn't help all that much either, since a lot of this "English" isn't really English at all.
After all, I know too many people who think that Handy is indeed the English word for a cell/mobile phone.
I haven't really thought about it before, but I think that this archive could be really great if it included Fanfiction in other languages as well. Fandom isn't just the English speaking fandom, even though a lot of people probably believe that.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-02 02:22 am (UTC)Well, last time I checked, there was a "language" button in the upload form. It only has one option so far, but that is probably going to change soon. And some people already did upload their German fanfic. The only problem is that no Germans will read it unless the system becomes better than that on ff.net.
After all, I know too many people who think that Handy is indeed the English word for a cell/mobile phone.
I still have problems with that. Not because I don't know any better, but because it's just so prevalent, and it's one of my favourite words to mix up. Not to mention that cell phone/Telefonzelle is another false friend.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-02 09:40 pm (UTC)I do hope that there will be translations of the interface to make it easier for everyone.
I also would like to see translations of the various stories into other languages. Don't know how that could work, though.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-03 12:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-31 02:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-31 07:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-05 10:41 pm (UTC)I know you didn't actually ask, but I can't help myself: 'Embracing Defeat' could only ever mean--to me anyway--that the defeated people are embracing defeat, never that defeat is embracing them. Any slogan-y use of 'embracing' would be like that. ("[You] embracing ___ is the first step towards...") It would have to be something like "the embracing arms of ___" for me to get the other reading.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-06 08:27 am (UTC)Re: "Embracing Defeat": Hah! The prof was wrong.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-06 01:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-06 01:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-06 01:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-06 01:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-12-31 02:57 pm (UTC)Though agree that some of the AO3 homepage phrasing is a bit baffling. For example for a while now I've been wondering what exactly the difference between a "non-profit" and "noncommercial" archive is, so that it has to list being both right in the intro. I guess non-profit might be a legal thing related to the OTWs status, but shouldn't that then imply noncommercial automatically?
no subject
Date: 2009-12-31 07:37 pm (UTC)Yeah, I guess there is a difference between the two words, but I don't know it either. Maybe non-commercial refers to "we don't charge you for any of our services", which some maybe some non-profits do? Or maybe it's redundant and they just include both to make it absolutely clear that the OTW is not making money off of fandom?
no subject
Date: 2010-04-14 09:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-14 01:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-14 01:32 pm (UTC)