Wow, has it really been two months ...

[rodo]

First of all:



I could actually afford the membership because a few days ago my aunt sent me and my brother an obscene amount of money that she insisted our grandfather would have wanted us to have (he died six years ago), despite the fact that my mother and brother tried to argue that it really belongs to her and our cousins. Now I'm wondering which video game to spend money on ...

There's also comment meta going around, which ... urgh. Is the best way to keep me from commenting on anything.

1) My feelings about a story are almost never as simple as "I loved this!". And if they are, it generally takes me at least a few days to sort them out anyway. And then I forget to comment. Not to mention that I have huge social anxiety problems, so even a three word sentence takes a lot of spoons out of me. And it takes way more than three seconds. It takes minutes.

3) I feel a little disappointed when a comment isn't actually about the story, but on the other hand, it's someone who wants to talk to me about something. Which is awesome! Unless it's spam, but I guess we can all agree that spam is always bad.

4) Well, I suck at not criticising at least a bit in a comment. What am I supposed to do when I have to comment on something but am not allowed to say any of the things that I want to say? There are reasons why I hardly comment on fic at all, and this is one of them. Also: I love concrit.

Regarding the comments: Most people who read my fics do read them on archives with hit counts. I can count the number of journal comments that I received on my fics with my hands, and I've been posting for over five years. So my general experience with hit/comment statistics is this:

Good: > 2 comments/100 hits
Normal: 1 comment/100 hits to 1 comment/200 hits
Bad: < 1 comment/200 hits

I know a lot of LJ authors who just started using the AO3 are confused and/or hurt by this, but it's normal. There are bots, readers who don't finish, readers who prefer not to comment, and readers who open a story more than once. A hit does not equal a reader, and staying silent is not a bad thing! Authors who are new to archives or haven't used them in a while just aren't used to the culture. It's not unusual for people to lurk, they do it all the time, the only reason why you didn't notice it before has zero to do with the fact that archives discourage from commenting but with the fact that you don't notice the lurkers on journals!

Comments

[anehan]

I obsess over my comments on fics. And all kinds of comments, really. I have to know the author of a fic or a post well before I can just shoot a comment off the top of my head. Usually I just read and re-read my comment and worry whether I've managed to say what I wanted to say.

Then there's of course the fact that I rarely know what I want to say. And that applies to both fic posts and other kind of posts. I may have half-formed thoughts which I'd like to share, but they look so stupid when written down that eventually I delete everything I'd written and wander away.

I think I want to direct the text of my icon at myself right now.

[rodo]

You sound pretty much like me minus the social anxiety and the unfortunate tendency to sound disapproving when you actually approve.

It was actually really distressing for me to read all the comments that basically were "If you like something, just write a comment, dammit! It's not that hard!" because for me, it totally is that hard. And I know that I'm far from alone with that problem.

[frogspace.livejournal.com]

because for me, it totally is that hard.

And then you have people like me. I don't have a problem writing comments (although I rarely do ^^°) but I don't know what to do with the comments I get! That's the number one reason why I rarely post fic. It's not that I haven't written anything between the story I posted in 2003 and the one I posted in 2009 but feedback makes me feel like I have to respond and then there is a conversation and... help!! Get me out! Talking about something I've written is the last thing I want to do. *my anxieties are special snowflakes*

[rodo]

Strangely enough, I have less of a problem with that, unless the comments are sort of baffling. What do you reply to someone who tells you your poems are good, but way too poetic? A short "Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it and I'm glad you liked the story" is generally enough, at least on archives, which aren't geared towards lengthy interaction between writer and reader. With that, everyone is happy in most cases.

I haven't had enough people comment on my journals to know how it works there.

[anatsuno]

if I may butt in (argh, sorry if this is too awkward); I think you should totally feel free to post stories with comments turned off! Or if you post in places where that is possible, to put in the notes that you'd rather get no feedback at all because it tends to make you anxious? I wouldn't as a reader be put off by that at all (though of course I can't speak for everybody).

[frogspace.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't post fic anywhere near my journal and the archives where I can post my fic don't have that option. ^^° On the contrary, the archive that hosts my fic has a complicated review system where posting reviews is actively encouraged and mods rate the reviews of readers as "helpful". For each helpful review you post you get points and when you have enough points you get a pet dragon for your profile. It's actually kind of awesome! (And I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of their pet dragon. *g*) But there is just no good way to say that I don't want to talk about the ending or share my thoughts on what might happen next.

[rodo]

That doesn't sound like a place where I would like to post either. Pet dragons are awesome, but not having a pet dragon is not.

[dancing_serpent]

I saw that comment meta on my dwircle this morning and followed the link but didn't try to discuss it before now because overall I found that post quite annoying.

For me it's actually a matter of decision. As you said, my feelings about a story are almost always more complex than a simple "I liked this" - but if it comes to commenting with some short approval or saying nothing at all, because I don't know how to express my own confusing thoughts, I go for the short comment option.

And that thing about hit counts...the OP made it sound as if it was a new invention, but yeah, lots of archives have it implemented, and I know of people on my dwircle/flist who add hit-count modules to their fic entries.
I've been posting to FF.net since 2006 (I think) and I'm used to pretty much the same comment/hit ratio you described.

[rodo]

Every now and again, someone on fanficrants complains about the comment/hit ratio on hir stories, and most of the time, the people there will repeat that it's really not that clear cut, so I'm really confused by the people who treat hit counts as if they are an AO3 thing. Where have these people been the last few years?

[lian]

*comments*

I loved your meta!

;D

[rodo]

I love you meta too! ^_^

And I think you said it much better than me, actually.

[starlady]

I often have trouble coming up with a comment that isn't bland approval even on fic that I really have loved, but I know it's important to writers so I find myself leaving that sort of comment anyway. But I don't feel as much compulsion to do that on the AO3 as I do on LJ, which I like.

As a comment receiver, I appreciate comments as well as hit counts. But I unquestionably feel obligated to respond to almost every comment both on the AO3 and on DW (since I don't post fic to LJ).

[rodo]

But I unquestionably feel obligated to respond to almost every comment both on the AO3 and on DW (since I don't post fic to LJ).

Me too. I feel as if it is something that I have to do, because I often feel underappreciated when writers just ignore my concrit and longish comments while acknowledging every other squee comment. Luckily, I don't get that many comments and it's managable, even if it sometimes takes me a few days to come up with a suitable answer.

Weirdly enough, I feel more compulsion to comment on the AO3 (and, to some degree DW) than I do on LJ.

[hl]

IAWTP

Also, 'read the room' may be the single most unhelpful thing to say to encourage people to comment ever. And I've heard a lot of things.

[rodo]

"Reading the room" generally leads to the following for me:

1) Am I the only one who noticed that the author has terrible grammar? Better not say anything at all to be on the safe side.

and

2) These people said what I'd like to say much better than I ever could. And there are so many comments, I'd rather not write a comment of my own.

The interaction between writer and longtime reader also scares me a bit because I feel like this isn't a place for me, the stranger.

[hl]

It's often impossible to 'read the room'. Even people who state they want concrit can react badly to it--there's no way you can just guess what they would welcome.

It makes it more difficult for those of us for whom the writing process is dialogic*, as this type of things helps to make fandom more hostile to real conversation, instead making it about the form. You can only say x, y and z, or then you're just making the author feel bad. And if you misjudge the type of thing that author wants to hear, then you're the rude one, who should've known.

The only safe thing to say is 'I love this story' or a small variation thereof. There's really no other thing you can comment on without taking the risk of pissing someone off. And really, sometimes, I'm up for the challenge--I made various good friends by commenting on their stories in a true way (i.e., not mechanically repeating what one is supposed to repeat), but sometimes, I just don't have what it takes to deal with it in case it goes wrong.

*I totally get that this is not so for other authors. However, stating you don't want x type of comments (or comments in general) can really go a long way, instead of expecting a random person to read your mind.

[rodo]

Even people who state they want concrit can react badly to it--there's no way you can just guess what they would welcome.

*cringes* Yes, I learned that the hard way, probably because I have trouble sounding enthusiastic and supportive in a comment. It works better in real life, for some reason.

I love concrit and I was fannishly socialised in an environment that praised good concrit, so the "don't say anything unless it's nice" attitude is really bewildering to me.

I made various good friends by commenting on their stories in a true way

Me too, even though we don't have much to do with each other anymore. But I never got into a conversation with anyone over stock phrases and a simple "I like this". Unfortunately, this takes spoons that I often just don't have. *sigh*

[elspethdixon]

It's often impossible to 'read the room'. Even people who state they want concrit can react badly to it--there's no way you can just guess what they would welcome.

*nods* I rarely offer concrit on stories, outside of a heads-up about a typo -- mostly it's because doing so is hard work, and even offering more detailed positive commentary (like, specifying what you liked instead of just saying "Great fic!") already takes a lot of thought, but also because not everyone wants to have their fic workshopped when they post it, for a variety of reasons (the fic's already done, and so they don't want to hear about things they could/should have done differently because they want to shift their focus to the next fic; they want fandom to be purely a light, fun hobby and aren't in it to improve their writing; they react badly to criticism; etc.). There's pressure not to ask that people refrain from offering concrit, and so if someone's said nothing about it one way or the other, criticim's just as likely to be unwelcome as not.

[hl]

In my main fandom (though I'm spending so little time in its sites that I wonder why I still call it my main one) the default state is 'no concrit allowed', and one has to explicitly state one wants it. I think in many ways it's worse.

When the people get used to not getting any kind of negative comments at all, neutral ones start seeming negative. There is case where the author was mad because someone had gone 'wow, awesome, I wonder if z'... 'z' wasn't what the author wanted the people to wonder about (it was true, but the author had the hope of deceiving the readers), and so zie almost flounced--a reader had to apologize for the rest to get them to post again. So speculating about the plot is also a touchy subject, even though it's something that used to be very usual, and something the fandom culture likes a lot. Your typo pointing would count as a grievous offence, as well (though it's my understanding that for some lj circles this is also true. No typo pointing at all or in private--depending on the people).

My main point is that... there's no 'one true way' to comment or receive comments. Expectations vary. I'll keep pushing for a set of them that makes it more likely there will be real conversation, because the alternative is just depressing, though.

[anatsuno]

I cam here via lian! I was also puzzled by the reaction to the hitcount stuff - it's like there's an LJ generation of posters who always deluded themselves that the numbers of comments on LJ reflected their numbers of readers accurately? I am puzzled. haha, so puzzled I said it twice!

Well. Yes. *g*

[rodo]

Yeah, those comments confused me as well. There isn't really much of a LJ audience for my stories and I don't post to LJ anyway, so I've always used archives and hit counters have been a part of my archive experience since 2004. Discussions about why people click on something but don't read have been around since then as well. I'm surprised that this was news to anybody.

[jaaaarne]

Heeey, welcome back! :) I was wondering where did you disappear for so long and if everything was quite okay. Nice to see you again. :)

As for the commenting on stories part, I personally have very little restrictions when it comes to social communication on the internet (and sometimes in RL, too; yes, I'm one of those nasty strangers that can start a friendly chit-chat with you while standing in the same aisle in a bookstore *gg*). So, I often comment on other's stories and entries. :) I do try to read the room lately, but still often forget what going against the tide can cost me, so yeah. *gg* Reading the room, but not always taking it into consideration. *gg*

I never expect replies to my comments when I comment on stories, although I gather this is an unusual behavior. And, which is worse, it works both ways, which means I rarely have the urge to reply to the comment someone else left on my story. That's not because I'm awkward to do it. I just don't see the point, because generally it means saying "thank you" to a person for saying "thank you". 8) But, like I already said, it seems to be an unusual way of thinking.

As an author I love me every comment I can get. :) It's not like I wouldn't be able to sleep without them, of course, but they're really nice. I wouldn't demand them from readers, though. Like you said, people have different reasons for not leaving comments, and I sure wouldn't want anyone to struggle with composing a comment because it's supposed to be a polite thing to do, not because they genuinely want to say something to me. Besides, even if there were no comments, I still have the story and the characters living in my head. :) That's a reward in itself, I think. At least when you care for your storyverse. :)

[rodo]

Hi! Everything is far from okay (RL sucks), but at the moment I feel a bit better.

I never expect replies to my comments when I comment on stories, although I gather this is an unusual behavior.

I guess it depends. When I write a long comment with concrit, I'd like to have some sort of acknowledgement, especially since I was the only one whose comment wasn't acknowledged once (it was the only concrit). I never really know what to say to one or two sentences either, so I don't expect anything there either. I reply to every comment I receive, because I want to keep the few readers who do read my stories, mostly.

I still have the story and the characters living in my head. :) That's a reward in itself, I think.

It very much is. I write because the stories won't leave me alone, not because I want to have a set number of comments/readers. I wouldn't write German fic about M from James Bond and Sarah Jane Smith baking cookies if that were the case. (The comments on that one were a really pleasant surprise.)

[jaaaarne]

It's good that you feel better. :) I hope things will straighten out soon for you.

I guess it depends. When I write a long comment with concrit, I'd like to have some sort of acknowledgement

Well, probably it depends. But I personally really do not care, even if I'm leaving concrit. Unless, of course, the author in question is somebody I know well, in which case I will probably hunt them down via ICQ or email anyway and we will discuss everything in details. :) In any other case it's the author's decision whether to take my suggestions into consideration or not. If they reply and we can have a rewarding discussion - it's awesome. If they don't reply - well, it's their story and it's them who calls the shots about their own writing. I'm not into forcing anyone into anything. :) If they really wanted concrit (not just said: "Concrit is welcome!" because they thought it was something a decent author is supposed to welcome), then they would reply. If they didn't want concrit, then... well, they didn't want it. :)

[rodo]

I actually disabled anonymous comments on an archive because sometimes I just have to reply and one time I couldn't because the comment was anonymous. It frustrated me to no end. ^_^

[amaresu]

Heh. I went off for several paragraphs about why I don't want people commenting just because they finished my fic. And I wasn't the only one. Although the vast majority seem to think that the point of comments are to get them rather then to hear from people who actually enjoyed their fic.

But, then, I count things like favorites/bookmarks as equal to a comment.


Re: Hit counts

I know the past few years has seen a big decline in archive use. There are fandoms out there, big ones, without a central archive now. That makes me sad, but gives me good hopes for AO3 filling in that gap. I think the result of this though has been people forgetting things like hit counts and how that relates.

And every archive is different, I think AO3 is still going through a learning process as people figure out how things work. But, for me, the Teaspoon is about 1:10 or so, HLFiction is maybe 1:50, Wraithbait 1:100-150. It's not the ratio that matters to me so much as a consistency. Because as long as my ratio is consistent then I know that my writing is consistent. When my ratio gets out of wack then there's a problem.

I may go make another comment about this on the post. C/P here I come!

[rodo]

I'm kind of used to the shaming of lurkers (there's a German word for the bad people who don't comment, even), but that doesn't mean that I'm any less fed up with it.

But, then, I count things like favorites/bookmarks as equal to a comment.

I count them as well, because evidently someone was interested enough to read it again or to rec it to friends. And seriously, it isn't that much different from "I liked it."

I suspect the AO3 will be more on the 1:100-150 end of things, even though my Yuletide story has 1:50 so far. I'm used to stats from Animexx (stats now discontinued), ff.de and ff.net, all bigger and less specialised archives, and I think with big archives, chances are much better that someone just clicks on your story to see what it's about without any intention to read it. I know I do that.

[amaresu]

One of these days I have got to learn German.

I think I was lucky in that my first fannish interactions were very welcoming to the lurkers. I think if I'd been told I had to participate I'd have freaked out, ran away, and never gone back. People lurk for a variety of reasons.

I count them as well, because evidently someone was interested enough to read it again or to rec it to friends. And seriously, it isn't that much different from "I liked it."

I actually almost prefer it to an "I liked it" on sites that show other people the things you've favorited. I can't count the number of fics I found by looking at an authors favorites. Especially at FF.N where it was just an easier way of finding fic then digging through everything else.

I'm thinking 1:150 sounds about right. I feel kinda bad, I'm a tag wrangler over there, and sometimes I'm looking at a tag and I can't for the life of me figure out if it's an obscure character from the source or an unlabled crossover so I have to click on the fic. Yet another source of those no-comment-hits.

[rodo]

I'm a mod at ff.de and have to read through three chapters/stories a day. Most of them are incredibly cringeworthy (I only came across two that were worth reading, IMO, in the last five months), so I generate hits as well, even though I'd rather not read the stories.

[dingsi]

there's a German word for the bad people who don't comment, even

Wait, was that the one where reading-without-commenting is compared to an actual, illegal activity? ...

[rodo]

Schwarzleser? Yeah. At least it's the same type of illegal activity as filesharing and most people have done it at least once.

[dingsi]

Yes, Schwarzleser is what I remembered. Not enough headdesk in the world.

[elspethdixon]

Reviewing everything you read may only take a couple of minutes per fic, but those minutes add up -- the first two years in my current fandom, I tried to review every single fic I read, like actual thoughtful reviews where I listed exactly what I'd liked about the fic and not just "Great fic, I loved it"s, and read most of the fics posted to our comm, and I Burned. Myself. Out. As the months went by, I found myself reading less and less fic, going off to lurk in other fandoms when I wanted to relax and read for pleasure, because I was only a lurker there and didn't have to, you know, *do* anything while/after I read - there was no social component and no energy commitment required, just like reading a published book. (I've probably read hundreds of fics in fandoms I've never been active in without reviewing, because I read *quickly* and often and always feel weird commenting on old fic, or fic outside my fandom written by people who don't know me, and because I started reading fic back in the days when everyone had websites on geocities, and reviews required the dreaded and terrifying step of emailing the author).

My New Years Resolution was to start reading and reviewing in my fandom again, but thus far I have a grand record of three fics reviewed since January. I really need to just suck it up and stop being such a lurker. And reply to reviews no matter intimidating it is, or people will start thinking I'm ignoring them.


People stressing out over hit counts puzzles me a little, or at least, I'm puzzled by the degree to which some people are upset by it. You *always* get more hits than comments, particularly is a fic is long - not everyone reads a fic in a single sitting. Some people read it more than once. Even if every single reader left a comment, you'd probaby; still get at least three times as many hits as reviews. Ten times as many, for extra-long fics. There are some long-running WiPs that I go re-read from the beginning after every update, which means the author's probably gotten dozens of hits on the fic just from me alone.

I have huge social anxiety problems, so even a three word sentence takes a lot of spoons out of me

You're not the only one. I stress over replying to reviews, rather than over reviewing, but I have friends who do both. Sometimes, even posting an lj comment is more social interaction that someone's capable of at the moment. Hmm... actually, I don't stress over reviewing on lj or dw or ff.net/AO3/yuletide, but I'll pretty much never review if I have to email the author directly in order to do so. Post an lj or dw comment, yes. Leave a review on an archive, yes, but sending an email to someone I don't know just seems so intrusive that I can't bring myself to do it, even though I know intellectually that they'd *love* getting it.

[rodo]

As the months went by, I found myself reading less and less fic, going off to lurk in other fandoms when I wanted to relax and read for pleasure,

I think I would do the same. Pressure to do something generally takes the pleasure out of it for me, no matter what it is. To me, writing a review would be a chore and it would take a lot of fun out of reading.

[51stcenturyfox]

Hi! Here from metafandom's delicious.

I agree that worrying about hit count in relation to comments isn't productive; I had a non-fandom blog for ages and people on the internet in general read and lurk a lot more than they engage.

Comments (any sort - detailed reviews, concrit or just "I liked this!") are awesome, to me, but some people will read and never comment, and that's okay too. Except we get a dollar or a pony when people comment. Oh wait, we don't! :D

But that brings up the point... why are you writing fic? If it's to entertain, which is my reason (along with, you know, having a story to tell), comments can indicate that people were entertained enough to comment instead of stopping after one paragraph because a story's not their cup of tea, so that's satisfying.

[rodo]

I write because the stories won't leave me alone and because I enjoy writing a lot. I post mostly to share, but I don't care nearly as much as some other people if others like my stories. I want to write good stories, but comments are, in my experience, not really an indicator as to whether the story is good or not.

[51stcenturyfox]

Of course they're not... they just indicate to me that *somebody* liked it. :D

There are many wonderful stories I've come across as a reader with few comments (and sometimes reccing them helps, but after a couple of days, not so much. Nature of the beast.)

[nic]

(Here via MF)

1) My feelings about a story are almost never as simple as "I loved this!".

Me neither, but I will invariably leave a comment like that and be done with it. Because I KNOW myself and I know I'll never come back to comment properly. I like to say something at least.

[rodo]

I just can't bring myself to write something that I know isn't entirely true. No idea why, maybe I'm just too honest.

[ssquirrel_fic]

Here from metafandom. I just wanted to agree really - the more I liked the story, and the less well I know the author, the harder I find it to comment. I want to do it justice, but worry I'll just come across as an idiot!
xXx

[rodo]

Hmm, maybe this is why I prefer to write concrit. It's far easier to write than pure praise, imo.

[franzeska]

Not to mention all those hits from tag wranglers repeatedly looking at your fic to try to figure out who on earth that mysterious crossover character is really supposed to be. (No, seriously, I keep realizing I'm driving up people's hit counts spuriously and going "Doh!")

[rodo]

Yeah, another person mentioned that as well, and I'm a mod at another archive and generate hits there as well without ever commenting.